JUST HOW DOES A DISCUSSION ABOUT RELIGION BECOME RACISM?
It’s shocking to say the least.
It seems that anytime a person comments about religion and not just religion but Islam religion in particular that suddenly they become the pariah of all pariahs, mini-Hitlers or something similar and are equated with being racists?
Today in the Toronto Star a story was printed regarding a mosque in the Etobicoke area, Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque that has apparently(according to the TStar story)made some very archaic references to female genital mutilation and has as a result of their views been commented on by some very “high” up Islamists(moderates)as being not worthy of charitable tax status as they are not acting in accordance with ideas set forth by KhalidMosque.org.
According to the Star, “Congress president Farzana Hassan said postings on the mosque’s website are “in contravention of what a moderate Muslim should stand for.” “Asked for specifics, Hassan cited the site’s “statements about women.” For example, she said, “they say female circumcision is honourable and yet they find piercing your ears reprehensible, wearing high heels reprehensible, laughing objectionable. It’s very disconcerting that their priorities are where they are.”
So, this mosque in Etobicoke then claimed they weren’t handed out equal coverage..or in other words, they were looking for a way to smooth over their views, so as a result they published this on their website….(if you click anywhere on the text it will take you there)
“A response letter was sent to John Goddard on Saturday November 8, 2008 before he published the article, and he failed to mention anywhere in the article that he has receivd a response from Khalid Mosque in regards to his concerns about the material in Khalid Mosque Website. Here is the letter that was sent to him:
November 8, 2008
Dear Mr. Goddard:
We would first like to take this opportunity to thank you for seeking our comments concerning certain material that is contained on our web site. We have maintained our web site to reach out to Muslims and non Muslims alike to provide to them the authentic teachings of Islam. We do not seek to offend or harm anyone with what is written on our web site. There are many different religions in this world and there are naturally many disagreements between scholars of each religion. This is a reality we all have to accept.
Different scholars of Islam may have differing opinions on the same subject. If the issue is clearly understood from the Quran and the Prophet Mohamed, the opinion of a scholar is not necessary. When we post a question and answer from a known Islamic Scholar on our web site, this does not mean that we agree or disagree with the views of that scholar on the particular issue being discussed. We try our best to enrich Islamic knowledge for anyone who visits our web site and show to them the differing views of Islamic scholars on a particular subject. We make it clear to all readers of our web site that unless the answers are provided by the Khalid mosque, the answers do not necessarily reflect the views of Khalidmosque.org.
It is our understanding that your article will address issues surrounding a Human Rights Commission hearing that is ongoing. We think it is very important that our position is clear to you and your readers: The Board of the Khalid Bib Al-Walid Mosque maintains the view that women are an extremely important part of the workplace in Canadian society and that they have made and will continue to make many meaningful contributions to Canada’s economy and the well-being of their communities and families. We of course wish that all women enjoy as much success in life as possible.
We advise both our brothers and sisters in Islam and whoever else is willing to pay heed, that we all should try and adhere to the moral and ethical scripturally sourced authentic Islamic values regarding the way we dress for work and in our interaction with people of the opposite sex. We pray that our Lord gives us the resolve, the strength and the support required to freely practice what our Lord wishes of us.
We are law abiding citizens of this great country and we practice our religion in a manner that is entirely consistent with the rights afforded to us by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We are against all forms of violence and we strongly oppose radicalism and extremism. Moderation, peaceful coexistence and mutual respect between societies are integral parts of our Islamic teachings.
We do not accept any form of intimidation. While some media outlets seek to lump all brothers and sisters of Islam together and suggest to their readers that all people of Islam are radicals and terrorists, this will never have the effect of forcing us to abandon our religion and its important teachings.
We would also like to respond directly to your questions concerning Judaism. We believe in the Torah as one of the books that Allah revealed from the above Seven Heavens. We believe in the prophets of Allah: Abraham, Ismail, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed. We believe that the Quran is the final message to the whole of mankind and Mohamed is the final Messenger and servant of Allah who was sent to the whole of mankind.
We are very concerned by the tenor of your questions that you may unintentionally harm the image of Somali Muslims in Canada with the words you write. As the Board of the Khalid Bin Al-Walid mosque, we are preparing ourselves for the inevitable backlash of hatred and threats that will come with the suggestion that we support radical Islam and that we are therefore terrorists. While we have become accustom to this form of racism, we never get used to it and it is very harmful to our people. We will reserve judgment on your article until after it is published and we are hopeful that it is accurate, fair and balanced. If it is not, we will seek the appropriate advice from our legal counsel.
Thank you, may Allah guide you to right path.
Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque Management and the Board of Directors”
So, exactly what form of racism is it that they are referring to? Religion is not a race of people. Religion is just religion. No race has nothing to do with this one, but religion certainly does.
And even their own peers do not see them as being very honourable and feel that their views do not reflect modern Islam(if you can call it that) in most respects.
Frankly, when it comes down to it, there is no room in our country for fundemental wacko religions that advocate violence against women(or anyone).
The government should strip this group of its’ non-profit status, nothing more and nothing less, and anyone under the age of 18, or anyone who was forcibly mutilated should report the crime to the police.
That’s a pretty good Canadian response for a rotten situation.
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39 Comments
“Mohamed is the final Messenger.”
…and the message is: kill all the Jews.
I just love this shit. Shine a light on these twisted fucks and they scurry like cockroaches. What a load of back peddling and bullshit. Yeah they’re “against all forms of violence.” They just neglect to mention that female genital mutilation and Jew killin’ isn’t violence in their version of things.
Too bad they’re Muslims. If they were Christians or Neo-Nazis they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.
Allah the final messenger? That is a really far fetched idea. More like David Koresh was the final messenger.
“Allah the final messenger? That is a really far fetched idea.”
It’s the central tenet of every monotheistic religion. Their messenger has to be the final messenger or a later messenger could over rule their messenger and mess up the game plan.
This whole post is baloney and bullshit. I know muslims and there is no such thing as women genital mutilation. Yes men are circumcised as Jew men are. You’re full of it.
“there is no such thing as women genital mutilation.”
Interesting. The guy has a computer but apparently isn’t familiar with google. Look it up. Find out how wrong you are.
BTW. Female Genital Mutilation is not comparable with male circumcision. It’s more comparable with having the last two inches of your dick cut off.
Here. I did all the heavy lifting for you… Here’s the link
http://www.meforum.org/article/1629
I’ve pasted a portion below…
There are indications that FGM might be a phenomenon of epidemic proportions in the Arab Middle East. Hosken, for instance, notes that traditionally all women in the Persian Gulf region were mutilated.[42] Arab governments refuse to address the problem. They prefer to believe that lack of statistics will enable international organizations to conclude that the problem does not exist in their jurisdictions. It is not enough to consult Islamic clerics to learn about the mutilation of girls in Islamic societies—that is like asking the cook if the guests like the meal. U.N. agencies operating in the region ignore FGM statistics saying they have no applicable mandate to gather such data. Hosken describes it as a cartel of silence: men from countries were FGM is practiced “enjoy much influence at the U.N.”[43] and show no interest in tackling pressing social problems.
Look fellow it is an African custom. Has absolutely nothing to do with any religion. These people are, Christians and pagans. You are just racist bastards trying to spread hatred against muslims.
See this link:
http://human-rights-violations.suite101.com/article.cfm/female_genital_mutilation
For all of you bigoted idiots none of three religions approve of female mutilation. It is a practice which predates these religions. So stop the the blatant ignorance and hate-mongering.
Christianity
FGC has never been part of Christianity as a faith system. There are no scriptural or doctrinal documents existing within the larger Christian tradition that even address the issue. The only contemporary examples of Christians practicing FGC are in Africa. As FGC rituals predated the missionaries work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of cultural tradition, unrelated to religious belief.
Judaism
The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion states that female circumcision was never allowed in Judaism.[61] Toubia (1995) states that female circumcision is not even mentioned in any religious text.[62] FGC is practiced by the minority Ethiopian Jewish community (Beta Israel), formerly known as Falasha, most of whom now live in Israel. The operation may only be performed by a Jewish female. Those Ethiopian Jews who have emigrated to Israel no longer practice FGC. [63] In general, traditional Judaism maintains that the body of a person belongs not to the person but to God.[64] Any permanent modification of the body which does not serve the purpose of correcting a deformity is considered to be a defacement of God’s property; thus, tattoos and body modifications are forbidden, with the exception of male circumcision, which is mandated. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, however, states that the practice of FGC cuts across religions, and lists Jews along with Muslims, Christians, and followers of indigenous religions as being among people who practice it.[65]
Islam
Female genital cutting predates Islam.[44]In Saudi Arabia, in the area known as the Hijaz, where Islam originated, FGC was already being practiced during the lifetime of Muhammad. To call a man a “circumciser of women” was an insult among the pagan Arabs at the time. Female genital cutting is not commanded by the Qur’an[45] and is not practiced by the majority of Muslims.[44] In Egypt, mufti Sheikh Ali Gomaa stated: “The traditional form of excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women’s bodies and minds.” [46]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting
Calling me a racist for simply demonstrating what is common knowledge for anyone who doesn’t have his head buried up his ass says far more about you than me.
Besides, and you’re the second dolt that I’ve explained this to in the last week on this blog, Islam is a RELIGION not a RACE.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it smarter.
Look dolt how do you explain that many Christians and Jews practice female genital mutilation in Africa. It has nothing to do with religion. It predates these religions. You’re utterly ignorant and indeed a hate-monger. You’re hate-mongering borders on criminality.
Criminals like you must be removed from liblog.
What’s really hilarious about this business is how the white Liberal apologists are flocking to defend Islam when the people who raised the issue and denounce this Mosque and its practices are MODERATE MUSLIMS. Talk about knee jerks.
READ THE THING idiots. Neither Jim nor anyone else that commented said that ALL Muslims practice FGM or that the practice is restricted to Islam.
You’re delusional. You’re arguing with something that only exists in your imagination.
“You’re hate-mongering borders on criminality.”
Your hyperbole borders on idiocy.
Look idiot, I have studied all three religions. They have lot more similarities than differences. Differences are more political than actual religious teachings. Then there are old pagan customs which are not associated with any of these religions.
Unlike you I am not putting down any religion. I am only appalled by idiots like you.
Dear 4:23…
What the fuck are you raving about? Did you bother to actually READ the post or comments?
The original posting and any comments not posted by knee-jerk apologists are referring to a specific mosque or to the practice of FGM. NOWHERE has anyone attacked Islam in the broader sense.
Stop making shit up and try dealing with reality.
“Creeping Radical Islam…” that is how your post starts. All I am saying is that it has nothing to do with religion. These inhuman practices predate all three religions. Do not bring the religion in. That is where your bigotry becomes obvious and blatant.
Seems isolated to certain sects only.It’s not very different than say slicing ones’ tongue or performance of any other self-flagellation excercise.
Creeping radical christianity sounds better.
http://www.thestar.com/Article/535278
A mosque asking that Canadian workplaces respect a strict Muslim dress code is at the same time disseminating slurs against Jews and Western societies, and warning members against social integration.
The Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque near Kipling Ave. and Rexdale Blvd. serves as the religious authority for eight Somali women complaining to the Canadian Human Rights Commission that UPS Canada Ltd. violated their religious rights at a sorting plant. The mosque, founded in 1990 and serving upwards of 10,000 people, preaches strict adherence to sharia, or Islamic law, and no compromise with the West.
Teachings on the mosque’s website, khalidmosque.com, refer to non-Muslim Westerners as “wicked,” “corrupt” and “our clear enemies.”
Sometimes Jews are singled out.
“Is it permissible for women to wear high-heeled shoes?” begins one posting in question-and-answer format. “That is not permissible,” comes the reply. “It involves resembling the Disbelieving Women or the wicked women. It has its origin among the Jewish women.”
Modern pastimes are condemned.
“What is the ruling on subscribing to sports channels?” another question begins. “Watching some of the female spectators, when the camera focuses on them time after time” stirs “evil inclinations,” the lesson reads. “Some (players) may not even believe in Allaah.”
Mosque leaders refused repeated requests for an interview.
A disclaimer on the website says questions and answers do not necessarily reflect the mosque’s views. But the About Us page says: “All questions and answers on this site (are) prepared, approved and supervised by (the mosque’s imam) Bashir Yusuf Shiil.”
The mosque’s stand on the UPS case also appears contradictory.
In September, a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal heard two weeks of testimony from eight mosque members alleging “Islamophobia” at the company’s west Toronto plant. Three final days of testimony are scheduled for next week.
The eight women, who lost their jobs at UPS, say Islam dictates that they wear a full-length skirt for modesty. The courier company insists that any skirt be knee-length for safety, as workers climb ladders up to 6 metres high.
Under their skirt, the women wear full-length trousers but say they do not want the lower part showing in case the shape of the calf can be discerned.
The complaint originally centred on the company’s use of temporary workers and uneven enforcement of its safety rules.
But the key question remains: Is UPS insisting on shorter hems for safety or is it violating religious rights by denying the women permanent jobs unless they conform?
So far, no Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque representative has attended the sessions, but the women cited the mosque as their place of worship and religious authority, and tabled a letter from its administration. “This is to certify that the religion of Islam requires all Muslim women to cover her entire body inclusive of the legs, arms, head, ears and neck,” the letter reads. “As such, (the women) would not be able to wear pants as an outfit.”
On the other hand, the mosque’s website teachings forbid women to work outside the home in the first place. “It is known that when women go to work in the workplaces of men, this leads to mixing with men,” one such posting says.
“This is a very dangerous matter,” it reads. “It is in clear opposition to the texts of the Shariah that order the women to remain in their houses and to fulfill the type of work that is particular for her …
“We ask Allah to protect our land and the lands of all Muslims from the plots and machinations of their enemies.”
Two of the women making the complaint – Dales Yusuf, 46, and Nadifo Yusuf (no relation), 36 – said in an interview that they live in Canada now, and are free to pick and choose from Islamic law.
“We must work,” said Dales Yusuf. “I’m a single parent raising my kids.” Jacquie Chic, a lawyer with the Workers’ Action Centre representing the women at the hearings, said neither she nor her clients were aware of the mosque’s posted teachings. “I, the Workers’ Centre and these women are concerned enormously about any expression of anti-Semitism or any other form of racism,” she said.
Questions to the mosque about its teachings were met with evasiveness over three weeks.
Mosque chairman Osman Mohamed three times agreed to an interview and three times cancelled at last minute. Imam Shiil was said to be in Saudi Arabia and unreachable. Mosque administrator Abukar Mohamed confused matters further by appearing to agree with UPS, saying: “The Quran says women must be covered – it doesn’t give you the specific clothes. But I am not a religious authority.”
Seems fairly clear to me that they aren’t your run of the mill moderates eh?
“All I am saying is that it has nothing to do with religion.”
It has everything to do with religion when it is promoted on a Mosque’s website. It has everything to do with religion when the news story specifically states that one group of MUSLIMS are criticizing another group of MUSLIMS for advocating barbaric practices. The story is all about MUSLIMS. How could it possibly have nothing to do with religion?
FGM may not have originated with any particular religion but when it is promoted and condoned by any group, religious or otherwise it should be exposed and confronted. The idea that anyone should get a free pass on this sort of atrocity for reasons of political correctness is obscene.
There is no bigotry here and the only thing that is obvious and blatant is your refusal to face reality.
I don’t think Islam condones female genital mutilation…but pedophilia is A-OK.
All public displays of all organized religion should be illegal.
“I don’t think Islam condones female genital mutilation…”
FGM is not prescribed in the Koran but the practice is condoned by some sects who use the mention of FGM in related Islamic texts as justification.
“but pedophilia is A-OK.”
So is bestiality according to the Ayatollah Khomeni. 🙂
Just to add fuel to the fire….
Vote now. Vote often. 🙂
http://infidelbloggerawards.blogspot.com/2008/11/1-blogger-most-likely-to-face-section.html
“Creeping Radical Islam…” that is how your post starts”
If that’s supposed to be a response to my claim that “NOWHERE has anyone attacked Islam in the broader sense” you’re scraping the bottom of the desperation barrel. Radical Islam is like Fundamentalist Christianity. Neither term refers to the vast majority of members of either religion.
I stand by my statement. NOWHERE has anyone attacked Islam in the broader sense. You’re running on empty. Maybe it’s time to change gears and call me a racist again. Isn’t that what you guys usually do when you’ve lost the argument. 🙂
Mutilation of women genitalia has absolutely nothing to do with any religion.
White supremacist defended slavery saying that bible advocates it. That does not make them religious Christian, radical or not. These fringe groups have nothing to do with religion as such. Your discussion is becoming more and more KKK. Are you related to David Duke?
“Are you related to David Duke?”
Hah! I knew it. You’re so desperate you played the race card, even after I rubbed your nose in it you did it anyway! Hilarious! …and pathetic.
“Mutilation of women genitalia has absolutely nothing to do with any religion.”
Then why does the Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque promote it on their website? They are using the full force of Islam to promote female genital mutilation. It may not be codified in the Koran but it is part of THEIR (members of that mosque) religion and they are MUSLIM. Just ask them.
My regards to Farzana Hassan for speaking out against these throwbacks. I hope he has bodyguards.
My apologies to Farzana Hassan. That should be, “I hope She has bodyguards.” My only excuse is that it’s early and the first coffee hadn’t kicked in yet.
Jim: After reading all this crap I think you’ll have a better idea of, ‘JUST HOW DOES A DISCUSSION ABOUT RELIGION BECOME RACISM?’
It’s simple really. All it takes is a retarded leftie who can’t can’t back up an argument and resorts to playing the race card out of sheer desperation. Calling someone a racist is supposed to end the argument. It doesn’t work of course but that doesn’t matter to someone who is short on rationality and blinded by ideology.
aw
The white supremacist held meetings in churches to perpetuate slavery. Is slavery then equal to Christians? Should we condemn these supremacist or the Christianity.
You fellows are using broad label of Islam to condemn certain fringe group if it exists.
I do not see any difference between you and David Duke.
Well, I certainly am not David Duke, and certainly am not a racist.(as if religion has anything to do with race)If you had balls enough to leave your name…I’d sue you for that comment.
Discussing radical religion should be no problem.I’ve discussed christians and jews and muslims…and have painted you all with the same feather…(that’s right…you are all wackjobs that believe in some fairy dust)
Canadas’ government should strip all religious groups from non profit status.They are businesses, designed to rake in money that is used for whatever purpose.
Me, I had to prove my son was autistic in order to get a tax break.(even though he is non verbal/requires 24 hour care and uses a host of medicines and suffers from celiac disease)
Churches should have to prove that dog…errr god, errrr allah, errrr bob dylan on a motor scooter exists beofre being given the same tax break.
Why our governments kiss the ass of fantasy is beyond me.
I should add that I completely abhor the practice of mutilation but it has nothing to do with any religion. It could be a synagogue or church in Africa discussing it.
Just stop hate mongering against a religion.
“You fellows are using broad label of Islam to condemn certain fringe group if it exists. “
Saying something doesn’t make it true and the above quote is a blatant lie. The Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque is using the broad label of Islam to promote FGM. I am merely pointing out that fact.
“IF IT EXISTS?” They have a Mosque. They have a congregation. They have a website. They’re the subject of an expose in the Toronto Star. “If IT EXISTS?” You’re taking denial to new heights of insanity.
“I should add that I completely abhor the practice of mutilation but it has nothing to do with any religion. It could be a synagogue or church in Africa discussing it.
Just stop hate mongering against a religion.”
You keep restating that FGM has nothing to do with religion as though repeating an obvious falsehood will somehow make it true. Every time you say it you just emphasize your own ignorance.
You even contradict yourself by saying that, “It could be a synagogue or church in Africa discussing it.” You are connecting FGM with religion in your own statement! I guess that makes you a racist bigot too. Welcome to the club. We don’t usually accept morons as members but if you can afford the dues we’ll consider it. A non-refundable deposit is required.
Send your cheque payable to the receiver general.
You have taken idiocy to a new level. All I am saying is that
“It could be a synagogue or church in Africa discussing it.”
But that does not make it Christian or Jewish practice as it does not make it Islamic practice. The practice pre-dates all these three religions.
You’re a hate monger
.
Completely ridiculous! Any religion that sanctions/uses these practices deserves condemnation.
For once i’d like to see those moderate islamists stand up against these people instead of the “infidels” having to do the job for them. I’ve met Jim Bender, he is a long way from being a hate monger or racist.
“For once i’d like to see those moderate islamists stand up against these people”
It IS moderate Islam standing up. That’s the whole point. Read Jim’s post. As an Infidel I’m supporting Farzana Hassan.
“But that does not make it Christian or Jewish practice as it does not make it Islamic practice. The practice pre-dates all these three religions.
You’re a hate monger.”
If Muslims practice it and promote it from the pulpit (or whatever)that makes it an Islamc practice. The fact that they adopted it before the ink was dry on the Koran is of no consequence.
You’re still a moron. Is the cheque in the mail?
wow, when a religion or, religions get to the point where you cannot speak out about a certain practice without being accused of so very many things, i think said religions should take a good hard look at themselves and try to find their sense of being canadian somewhere within themselves. we are allowed opinions here, we are allowed questions here, and we are allowed to denounce practices that are illegal here with out being accused of being racist. get a grip people, ya know, true north yada yada. (i personally think that all religions should get NO non profit status and they should be considered to be a personal choice (as long as they dont break our laws) totally separated from everything up to and including – especially including – all forms of government)
It really is sad.
People need to discuss what’s going on. Without discussion only fear can be perpetuated.
Obviously many people are concerned with the way in which organized religions operate in our country or there wouldn’t be so many people talking about it.
Most importantly, and the argument has gotten away from this point, is that genital mutilation has taken place in Canada and elsewhere, and as well other serious infractions against the human race and women in particular.
Practice your religions and worship whatever it is you need to make yourself feel good about yourself, but leave the violent customs where they belong…back in the dark ages, in the distant past where they’ve long been buried.
Fact is, we are all inter related by virtue of evolution. We all crawled on the sea floor in the same slime at some point in time,but some of us unfortunately have failed to recognize this and have chosen not to evolve into a similar state of humanity that the majority of the world shares.
No praise to allah, nor to god, but I will thank all of my good friends and enemies for the wonderful and fruitful dialogue today:)